Tag: legal news reach

Legal News Reach Episode 4: The Perfect Storm: Law Firm Marketing & Business Development Budgeting with Beth Cuzzone, Global Practice Leader of Intapp

Welcome to Season 2, Episode 4 of Legal News Reach! National Law Review Managing Director Jennifer Schaller is joined by Beth Cuzzone, Global Practice Leader of Intapp. Together, they discuss the best budgeting strategies for legal marketing departments as firms emerge from the pandemic with a new set of priorities and perspectives.

We’ve included a transcript of the conversation below, transcribed by artificial intelligence. The transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.

Jennifer Schaller

This is Jennifer Schaller, and I’m the Managing Director of the National Law Review. We’ll be speaking with Beth Cuzzone, who’s the Global Practice Leader of Intapp. Beth, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what you do at Intapp?

Beth Cuzzone

Thank you for asking, Jennifer. I think it’s an important table-setting question. So I recently joined Intapp in 2022. It’s a global technology firm, and it partners with investors and advisors to help them run their businesses. And it basically follows those companies through the lifecycle of their companies, whether it’s intake or relationship management, or deal management, or billing or marketing or risk, and so many other operational functions. But my role Intapp sits in the marketing and business development corner of those companies. So as a Global Practice Leader, I’m responsible for working with a team of subject matter experts who help clients align their strategic priorities with our solutions. It’s been an interesting and challenging shift, because I spent more than 30 years of my career in the very types of companies that Intapp now helps. So it’s been an interesting and exciting and challenging change all at once. And I think it also gives me a unique lens into what we’re going to be diving into today.

Jennifer Schaller

Okay, wow, it sounds like a spot-on match here we have today. So let’s dig into it. We’re talking about law firm budgets. So for this upcoming budget cycle, for firms who are either almost done with it, or in the process, or close to wrapping it up. What’s different this year than in previous years in law firm marketing and business development departments?

Beth Cuzzone

In one word, everything. If we take a step back and look at the easy formula that law firms have used traditionally when creating their budgets, there hasn’t been a lot of secret sauce. In its simplest form, and I am oversimplifying it for illustrative purposes, but in its simplest form, law firms for years and years and years, and year over year, would take into consideration their former budget number and give it an increase that aligned with the firm’s increase in their revenue for that year. And then the real work would begin on saying, Okay, we’re going to give ourselves a 2 or 3% increase, because we increased our revenue by 8%. So we’re going to take some slice of that, and we’re going to increase what we did last year, and then they would reallocate that number. And so if it was my budget was $1,000 last year, and you know, now I’m going to increase it by 3%, it’s going to be $1,300. And now let me just play around with the line items and see where we want to spend a little more, where we want to spend a little less. Given the years that we’ve had coming up to the 2023 budget season, we had 2020, when the pandemic hit, we had 2021, where we were still experiencing the effects of that. And then in 2022 as people tried to move back into some normalcy of spend market, you know, marketing, outreach, awareness, credibility, relationships, going back into the office, that sort of thing, the budgets are a little bit all over the place. So to answer your question, why is this coming year’s budget different? It’s because you don’t have last year’s budget that you get to just reset.

The interesting thing is that I think it actually is going to provide opportunities to relook at the way you think of your budget and think a little bit about very specific line items. You know, I do think one of the places that people are going to spend a lot of time thinking about is digital marketing. And, you know, a question I had for you is, have you seen an uptick in the digital marketing spend from law firms, where we were pre-pandemic, to pandemic to where people are moving towards?

Jennifer Schaller

That’s kind of a multi-layered question. I mean, over the last five years, there’s obviously been a switch to more digital. There’s a couple of different things going on in the larger digital advertising industry. Advertising rates right now as a whole are pretty suppressed digitally. So that’s impacting us a little bit, just because the baseline is down. But if you’re in a specific niche, like the National Law Review, where you know, we very much have the traffic and the audience, there’s always going to be a demand for it. What’s going to be super interesting to see is when cookies go away. People keep talking about that, because that’s going to make the content on the website far more relevant, as opposed to having retargeting ads and things like that. But the date keeps changing on that. So, you know, we’ll let you know when we know. And related to publishing end of it, there’s been a bit of a sea change on that. There always was sort of a pushback or a stigma somewhat attached to pay-for-play publishing. But a little bit of a difference with that is, over time, most marketing professionals, especially in legal, understand that there’s costs involved in running a quality publication, if you want to have analytics, if you want to have a responsive staff who’s around to make edits, that you have to pay for that, and that, you know, if you don’t have money coming in from subscriptions, if you’re a no login website, that there’s going to be cost. So there’s been a bit of a change there. There’s more receptiveness to it. And I think maybe because law firms themselves understand what it takes to publish, they’re a little more forgiving, and understanding that we have costs too, if that makes any sense.

Beth Cuzzone

It makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. And again, there’s no direct answer to some of these complicated questions that we’re asking each other today about where people are spending and where it’s going versus where it’s been when we’ve had this pause on so many levels. And like you said, I also just think that the lens of the marketing and business development departments and law firms are really starting to appreciate that looking at digital assets as a way to create awareness and credibility is going to be a leader in their budget.

Jennifer Schaller

Well, yes, especially since events have changed and gone away. And a lot of sponsorships have changed. And given that pandemic ripple effect of live events versus sponsoring tables at events, which used to be a part of legal marketing department spends, what’s becoming more the standard for law firm, legal marketing department and business development spend, is it changed? Is it reallocating? How is that working?

Beth Cuzzone

That’s a great question. So typically–I heard somebody say once, law firms are like snowflakes, everyone is different. And I know that when I look at industry statistics that talks about the swing of spend, that has to do with you know, the percentage of revenue of law firms, that it goes anywhere from 2 or 3% to 18, 19, 20%. And the reason that they have that swing is because in some marketing and business development department budgets, they include personnel when others don’t, okay, or in some marketing and business development, department budgets, it’s all marketing, whether it’s for the HR department, or legal recruiting, or the firm, and others. Those are each very separate departments and separate budgets. So there is this huge spread across the industry. But I think for most firms, we’re going to find that there’s that 3.5 or 4% to 8% budget target of revenue. And that’s kind of where people settle in. There are outliers on both sides. And interestingly, there’s often some surprises. I find that sometimes some of the smaller, mid-sized firms have larger percentage budgets. But I think that’s because they can’t enjoy the scales of economy that larger firms can. If you’re looking at your budget, and we can talk about this in a little bit, you know, in 2020 when the pandemic started, all discretionary budget items were removed from law firms, whether it was in marketing and business development or not. So it was like, “Unless we’re contractually obligated to pay something, we’re taking it off the table.” And so now firms are getting that opportunity to rebuild it. And again, that approach and that budgeting exercise is a real opportunity for these firms to say, “What haven’t we been asking ourselves?” Or, “What haven’t we done that we’ve wanted to? What’s not in our budget? What should be or what are the opportunities out there in terms of places or people or technology or intersections that we’ve never tried before?” So I think there’s some of those questions that are happening, too.

Jennifer Schaller

Yeah, I think if anything, this is just helpful to know, to have legal marketers or even law firm administrators, or management know how to ask questions about legal marketing budgets, that there is such a wide range, but the wide range prompts people to ask the question, “What’s in that figure and what’s not?”  I’ve never really had it broken down that well before. So thank you for taking the time to spell that out. Because it’s not spelled out a lot of different places. Many people will appreciate that.

When you’re talking about law firm marketing budgets, what’s the difference between acquisition marketing and retention marketing and preparing budgets? Should law firms dedicate more resources to one or the other? Or is it some sort of blend?

Beth Cuzzone

That is a very forward-thinking question that you’re laying out there. Because I think that law firms basically had two types of buckets, if you will: they thought of it as awareness and credibility building, or relationship building, it was one of the two. And so they had some things around awareness and credibility, we talked a little bit about it earlier, you know, it’s that one to many, the website, you know, the content, the newsletters, the big events, that sort of thing. And then the relationships are kind of those one-on-ones. It’s the spending time going out and sitting down with a prospective client to learn something, or having an entertainment budget or doing some small roundtables with thought leadership, or sitting down with different decision makers at a particular client site so that you’re staying close to them. And it was a little bit all over the place. And the shift that I’m starting to see happen is that law firms are starting to break down their budgets into exactly what you said: acquisition marketing, which is, “How are we getting new clients?” versus retention marketing, which is, “how are we keeping and growing the clients that we have, or the brands that we have, or the relationships that we have?” And by doing that, they’re also starting to do account-based marketing. And they’re able to put their budgets together and say, “We’re going to spend 70, or 60, or 80% of our budget on our existing relationships, because we know that it costs six to eight time more money, resources, people budgets to get a new client than it does to keep and grow an existing one. So when you look at the scale of acquisition versus retention, retention is going to get that bigger budget. And then the acquisition is going to have a smaller wallet share of the overall budget. But within that big budget, you’re going to start that retention budget, you’re going to start to see that being broken down a little bit by account-based marketing as therefore account based budgeting. Again, this is a little bit around the corner. And this is I think what firms are going to be dealing with over the next five years of exactly being able to measure their return on objectives or their return on investments and where their money is really being spent. Because they’re going to be tying it down to very specific objectives and very specific strategies, if you will.

Jennifer Schaller

Okay, so what would be some of the areas that there would be an overlap, like between acquisition and retention marketing, would that fall in the digital area? Or where would that be?

Beth Cuzzone

That’s a perfect example, please look at what we’re talking about like a Venn diagram, right, you’ve got your acquisition, you’ve got your retention and then there’s the place where they overlay. Digital assets are a perfect example that fall into both. It’s helping you in the marketplace. And it’s helping you find your next big relationships and clients and referral sources. And those are the same assets that you can use to add value and stay close to some of your existing relationships, places where they start to separate a little bit, again, is really by account or by client, client-based marketing versus account-based marketing. And so you might have a firm where you say, we’re going to spend a lot of our travel and entertainment budget on going to each one of their offices and doing junior executive training. So that we’re aligning ourselves with the next generation of decision makers, and that’s how we want to spend our money and our time and our budget and our resources and our people on that particular client this year, sort of thing. So it all depends, again, on the strategy. And it also depends a little bit on the firm.

Jennifer Schaller

Yeah, would it vary by practice group, or just like, if you had a firm that was, you know, just intellectual property law based, would there be differences in the ratio or the mix or network?

Beth Cuzzone

That’s a great question. So there are some firms and also practice areas where there’s annuity streams, if you will, right. There’s just an ongoing, “We represent this particular finance institution on all of these sorts of loans. And, you know, we do 5, 10, 15 a year for them.” Think about if you were actually a litigator, and you were representing financial institutions where you didn’t know how many you were going to have in a year or whether you were not going to have any for two years and how they think of you and they call us when it’s about the company or they don’t call us when it’s about the company so you have to again, look at the firm, its strategy, the cadence of those open matters, the cadence of when they’re being asked to help clients and then try to align your budget and the activities in your budget around those very objectives. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Schaller

Yeah, it does. A lot of what you’re breaking down is really helpful because people throw numbers out there, but they don’t go into the details of what moves the numbers up or down, like your example of depending on if the law firm is including the expenses for HR, or including the salaries of the marketing department in there, that should make a big difference. And nobody really spells that out. So that was very helpful.

Beth Cuzzone

What kinds of trends are you seeing…there’s this nuance that’s happening now Jennifer, where there was a period of time “back in the day” where all law firms took out one-page ads in some of the biggest business-to-business publications and journals, or like yours, very, very niche, industry-specific news-related channels. And it was “we want to be top of mind” with whoever the reader is, whether it’s our peers, whether it’s our competition, whether it’s a referral source, whether it’s a potential client, whether it’s somebody on the other side of the table, and over time, that awareness campaign started to move into that content campaign. And I’d really be interested to see how are law firms maintaining that mindshare in the marketplace? What are you seeing?

Jennifer Schaller

Some big change from print, and what’s really changed–COVID was sort of terrible for the world, but in a lot of ways good for law firms and legal publishing. Because there were so many rapid developments of a legal or administrative or regulatory nature going on, there was just a lot of content to be written on and a lot of people looking for that content. So there was inherently a lot of traffic just being driven by COVID and all the related changes to it. Now that that’s leveled out a little bit, what we’re seeing from law firms is when they do their informative writing, meeting, talking about cases that happened and why that’s important to a particular industry, or new regulations that are on the horizon, what’s a little bit different is they’re starting to impose–not impose, but impart–their personality a little bit more. We’re seeing more content come in where it talks about people’s journey in the legal profession, how they balance working from home or transitioning out of working from home in a little bit more with the content. So before there was very little of that. I mean, there was some. It’s pretty prevalent now where we’ll see many law firms just have entire blogs and podcasts and a whole kind of vertical dedicated to life balance, people’s career paths, and things like that, which is a bit different than what we’ve seen before. I think it provides a good opportunity for law firms to tease out their competitive differences just by letting people know who they are, because ultimately, with law firms, they’re buying the person and their knowledge and their background. And this is kind of a more forward way of doing it than what’s been done in the past.

Beth Cuzzone

You know, it’s so interesting to hear you say that. I don’t think I really put such a fine point on it until you just mentioned it. All law firms do the same thing. For the most part, a general practice firm does the same thing as the next general practice, you know, an IP boutique does the same thing as the next IP. But how you do it, who you do it with and the culture is what your differentiator is. And you’re right, as I’m thinking a little bit about the sorts of information that I’m seeing, either the types of information or the personality in which people are writing, it really is giving firms a way to showcase their culture and who they are and their differentiator as opposed to all sounding like really smart law firms.

Jennifer Schaller

It’s that and I think it’s a little bit recruiting as well. I mean, the whole world has experienced quite a bit of turnover. Law firms have always had more turnover than other industries. So we’d have some stuff coming in where folks are interviewing their summer associates. And they’re doing that on a couple different levels. I think it plays to people who may be interested to know how a person got a summer associate position at an Am law firm, but also, you know, it’s a big hug to that person, and it shows in a recruiting sense that that law firm really cares about folks at all levels of the organization. We wouldn’t have seen that 10 years ago, so that’s just really different.

Okay, so let’s get into the fun part: budgeting tips! You’ve been doing budgets for years, you work with an organization that helps law firms kind of balance competing things for their attention and help tease out what’s probably the best bet for the firm. Do you have a few tips to share with our readers, or our readers and our listeners today, concerning law firm budgets, what to include what to not get pushed back on?

Beth Cuzzone

Yes, I think that there are a few best practices out there that law firm marketing and business development departments want to be thinking about as they’re either negotiating their budgets with firm management, or if they’re actually putting it together. We talked a little bit about the fact that historically firms have used the previous year and that budget number is a benchmark. Ironically, in 2022 law firm marketing and business development budgets increased by more than 100%. And again, it’s because in 2020, and 2021, they were decimated, it was the place where there was the most discretion in the budget, there were things like they weren’t going to be doing sponsorships, they weren’t going to be holding webinars, they weren’t going to be traveling to see clients or things–like take it all out. So then when we started to move towards this normalcy of, “let’s get back to business in 2022”, with a kinder, gentler, more softer approach, they had to increase their budgets by more than 100%. So the first thing I would say is, do not prepare your 2023 budget based on your 2022 budget, because you’re going to show that there’s already been 100% increase, and there will probably be very little wiggle room. I would also scrap 2020 and 2021. So I think one of my tips or best practices is, use 2019 as your benchmark, not 2021 or 22. For the reasons we’ve just talked about.

The other thing, you just mentioned this in the way you asked the question, is that there is a very complex ecosystem in law firms, and the marketing and business development budget is one of many competing priorities. And I think understanding that budgeting is a long-term game, not one you win every year. And so what I’m trying to say is, take a panoramic view of where the firm is, what they’re trying to accomplish, what some of their major goals are for the next year or two, look left and look right at what other operating department budgets are going to be impacted by that, and prepare your budget within the context of what’s happening. So don’t ask for the greatest budget increase among every operations department, every year. There becomes a fatigue, where it’s like, “Nope, just give them the 2%, we’re not going to listen to why they deserve more every year, year over year than every other department.” So I think walking in and being able to communicate, “We understand that lateral growth is one of our top strategic priorities, and that you’re going to be spending a lot of our budget on legal recruiting. So this year, I’ve put in some particular items and activities that will support legal recruiting, and I’ve moved my budget request from a 6% increase to a 2% increase.” And again, you can negotiate two or three years in advance, then say, “I just ask that when we’re looking at my budget in two years, or in three years that we appreciate that I’m asking for a smaller increase this year, given where we are, what we’re doing.” You know, it also goes a long way when there’s been a down year.

So, so far we’ve said, use 2019 as your benchmark, don’t ask for the greatest budget increase among every operations department every year, try to negotiate for two or three years in advance at your firm, but also negotiate two or three years in advance with your partners or vendors, depending on what you call them. You know, to be able to say, “Listen, we want to do this. And we can’t be all-in this year because our budget isn’t going to allow us, but can we negotiate an 18-month relationship with you and spread it over a 24-month period?” Negotiate a little bit! These are companies that want to partner with you. I also think it never hurts to ask and get comfortable with, again, just partnering with your vendors. That’s why I always call them partners and not vendors. Be comfortable with partnering with them and saying, “Look here are two or three things I’m trying to accomplish. And I only see one of those things in the proposal that you sent to me. Are there some things that you can put in here that are revenue neutral? Or are there ways that you can reallocate our spend and help me hit these other budget objectives?” They’ll work with you. So negotiate with management and then partner with your vendors.

I’ve been talking with a lot of firms. And another thing that I’m seeing firms really start to do is ask themselves, “Where is the lowest risk and the highest return?” and vice versa, and making sure that your budget is representing that like, “Boy, this is the lowest risk and a really good return. So we’re going to do more of this. And this is a really high risk, very questionable return. We’re going to do less of this.” And by the way, having those conversations with your management committee or your manageing partners or your executive committee about the ways that you’re looking at risk versus return, or contextually where you are in the firm’s operational churn, if you will, those sorts of things will help you in the long run.

Jennifer Schaller

It’s really great that you point out the need to let your vendors know what your goals are. It’s very challenging sometimes when people are like, “What’s the price? You know, what, what, what is your best price?” What is important to you? It’s not really a negotiating technique, we want to know where to focus to best meet your needs. And if we have no concept of what your goals are, or what you’re trying to highlight, it makes it infinitely more challenging.

This year, or any historically, are there budget items that you would suggest CMOs pay more attention to this year than in previous years or anything that’s unique about this year that they might want to highlight other than the points that you made about using 2019 as a base point versus the previous two years? Which were just weird. Is there anything else different?

Beth Cuzzone

You know, I think this is the time everybody is peeking over the horizon wondering, “Is there a downturn? Is there a recession? Is there a down year coming? What do we do?” You know, you’ve got, you’re asking yourself all of those questions. I think this is also a year, when you’re looking at your budget, to look at things that are driving efficiencies, scalability, revenue generation, right? There’s a difference between cost and investment. Make sure that your budget has a nice healthy mix of, “These are things where we want to spend money to get more money. And then these are places where we want to spend money so that we can meet an objective,” and I call them return on objectives, and return on investments. “We want to be known in this new market. We want to open up an office in Texas. And so we’re going to be spending a lot of time and money and energy and budget on really getting the word out creating some top of mind awareness in Texas.” That’s an objective, right? If it is that we really want to get a little closer to the bottom quartile of our clients in terms of revenue and say, “How can we help them with more problems than we do now? How do we take them and really try to grow the wallet share that they spend on outside counsel?” That’s a return on investment. So you know, have that healthy mix on return on investment, and return on objective.

Jennifer Schaller

Fair enough. So briefly, your firm Intapp? How do they help law firms with their budgeting process? Are there specific things that they’re set up to do to help?

Beth Cuzzone

Thank you for asking me that and for being so gracious. Because yes, I think the answer is yes. So Intapp can help law firms create insights to find revenue, find where there’s work that’s more profitable, find where, you know, there’s whitespace, and opportunities, or be able to basically measure things, and have this one source of truth in your law firm, where you’ve got all of these technologies that help all of these different operating departments that all connect, that’s why it’s called Intapp, there’s an integration to this, and they all integrate and talk to each other. And those kinds of insights can inform law firms about the kind of money that they’re spending and the kind of return that they’re getting. And it can be as simple as looking at your marketing campaign open rate for your last email, all the way to looking at some very strategic insights of “here are some spaces or places in our firm where we could be working closer with clients, or an industry where we haven’t saturated as much as we could.” So it can go from tactical to strategic, and that’s what Intapp does. That’s why it’s such an amazing company.

Jennifer Schaller

So is Intapp more process or technology based or kind of marrying the both of them when they work with law firms?

Beth Cuzzone

That’s another great question. So it’s a technology company. And I think the thing I’ve been most surprised with is the brainpower that sits in Intapp and all of the people that are there to help clients successfully deploy, or change management professionals that help you get more engagement at your firm, or help you with use cases of smarter ways to use the technology.

So Intapp sells technology that has professionals that help you with the people in the process as well. It’s a little competitive secret.

Jennifer Schaller

Sounds like a good match. As always, we appreciate Beth’s time sharing her thoughts with us and her experience and kind of the trends that she’s seeing and marrying it with the experience that she’s had over the years. Thank you very much.

Beth Cuzzone

It was so great to see you, Jennifer. So great to see you. Thank you for inviting me and be well. True North.

Conclusion

Thank you for listening to the National Law Review’s Legal News Reach podcast. Be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts for more episodes. For the latest legal news, or if you’re interested in publishing and advertising with us, visit www.natlawreview.com. We’ll be back soon with our next episode.

Article By The National Law Review Editorial Team of The National Law Review / The National Law Forum LLC

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Copyright ©2022 National Law Forum, LLC

Legal News Reach – Season 2, Episode 1: Immigration & Its Impacts on the U.S. Labor Market with Raymond Lahoud [PODCAST]

Welcome to our first episode of Season 2! Rachel and Jessica speak with Raymond Lahoud, a Member of Norris McLaughlin, P.A., focusing on immigration law. Immigration issues are complicated enough, but how does that factor into boosting the U.S. economy?  Listen to our last episode to find out more.

Be sure to also check out the latest episode of Mr. Lahoud’s podcast, “Immigration Matters.”

We’ve included a transcript of our conversation below, transcribed by artificial intelligence. The transcript has been lightly edited for style, clarity, and readability.

Full Transcript

INTRO  00:02

Hello and welcome to Legal News Reach, the official podcast for The National Law Review. Stay tuned for our discussion on the latest trends, legal marketing, SEO, law firm best practices, and more.

Rachel  00:15

Today’s episode is the first of the second season, where we’re broadening our focus to trending topics in the legal industry. Today we’re speaking with Ray Lahoud, Member of North McLaughlin about the impact of COVID-19 on immigration and labor shortages. Ray, would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Raymond Lahoud  00:30

Well, thanks for having me, Rachel. It’s really awesome to be here on this podcast and to talk about such an interesting area of law right now, in the world, particularly immigration law. I’m a partner at Norris McLaughlin, where I serve as the Chair of the Immigration Law Group here. I handle employment-based immigration matters, removal defense, employment, verification, I noncompliance all types of immigration matters, a broad spectrum with my great team of attorneys, paralegals, and assistants here at North McLaughlin. So thank you again for having me. It’s great to be here.

Rachel  01:05

One of the first topics we wanted to focus on here is immigration’s impact on labor shortages. You’ve written a lot about the impacts on the U.S. economy due to labor shortages. Can you explain how immigration can help remedy the situation?

Raymond Lahoud 01:18

I think we can all agree that without labor without employees, without people to go and work in whatever company, whatever organization, whatever place that exists out there that that needs to provide services or goods to the American public needs, needs employees. Without labor, there’s no economy, immigration right now is really a huge part of the employment demand, or the employment shortage share. There’s a lot of Americans who are able to legally work who just don’t want to work or have you know, taken different decisions or different approaches on life or what they want to do with their life. But we still need people to perform some of these essential functions from farming, to nursing care to handling, you know, mushroom picking to manufacturing, immigration is the way that has long proven to be a way to solve that through temporary visa programs through you know, green card programs that existed out there. And under the Trump administration. And when COVID hit, things really got hit pretty hard and really slowed down the ability for people to bring in international employees to the United States that fill that gap.

Rachel  02:29

This has been an ongoing issue. So are there any policy changes on your radar that will help solve this issue, either through immigration or otherwise?

Raymond Lahoud 02:38

The only way to solve this issue is through comprehensive immigration reform. For over a decade now, we’ve been using the number of 11 million people that are in the country without documentation, I think we can all agree that that number is significantly higher, probably 20, or 30 million people, step one is going to be trying to figure out how we handle those 20 to 30 million people or even Federalists 11 million people that 11 to 20 million people that we have the United States without documentation. And that means that some people are going to have to be deported, who you know, may have certain crimes may have certain issues in terms of their background, but a significant number of these individuals have been in the country for a long time, working without authorization, pleading taxes. So there has to be a process of legalization for those individuals, which is the big issue. We don’t what is legalization for them. And then there also has to be a secure border where people can’t just cross the border without any documentation. I mean, every country has borders, borders are important. We can all see how important borders are right now with what’s happening in Ukraine. You know, comprehensive immigration reform includes having an ability for individuals to come into the United States to work to claim asylum if they have to, to help our employers here in the United States who need employees because people are just not taking part or not applying to Americans are just not applying to take on these jobs. The great resignation has, for some reason taken over the United States and it continues. So what do we need? We need comprehensive immigration reform? How do we get there? It’s getting members of Congress to agree daily, I’m talking to clients who will arrive in Pennsylvania and they’ll say how do I start working here I just crossed the border assuming that because they heard on Facebook before they came up here are on TikTok are though like that it would be very easy for them to claim asylum. So I’m dealing with a lot of clients and potentials and individuals who have just recently crossed the border now feel that they’re stuck in the United States because they can’t leave because they have to go through proceedings and they can’t work. I mean, there’s also in this representation, let’s say that we keep hearing the numbers, millions are coming to the United States. There are millions of encounters. So you may have one person try to come to the United States four or five times and each one is considered an encounter. And this is a problem that we see from President to President, by the way, and this is why I say we need comprehensive immigration reform. Because let’s go back to 1986. Ronald Reagan was going to deal with the immigration problem we had, you know, millions of people here in the United States back then. And he did put three amnesty 1213 14 million people were granted permanent resident status, they say that cost the turn of California to a blue state once they became citizens top political. In the end, they’re like going back to that every President has made immigration, much tougher, actually very tough. Actually, it was the administration that puts some of the toughest policies when it comes to what’s called the public charge rule. The way our system is written right now is that the executive branch just has so much ability and authority discretionary ability and authority over what to do or what not to do, what they can do what they can’t do in terms of immigration. And then every time a new president comes in, something changes drastically. So you had Obama come in, then he puts in place DACA, you know, gives eight 900,000 people, you know, a temporary quote-unquote, status, and you have President Trump come in, and he takes it away. And then you have President Biden come in. Again, it goes back to comprehensive immigration reform. It’s all just been patchwork since after ’86. Now we have 11, 12, 13, 14, 20 million people here. So it’s-I think the distaste is, is that we’re going to grant people status, and it’s just going to happen, again, has to be a two-fold fix as to be true, comprehensive immigration reform where we’re not, you know, 10 years down the road, we don’t have another 15 million people that don’t have documentation here.

Rachel  06:34

What can companies do to help deal with this shortage of immigrant labor or just labor in general?

Raymond Lahoud 06:39

Every day, I probably field 20 to 30 calls from employers who cannot find employees. It’s the biggest problem. I think that’s facing our country right now. And I’m not sure where it comes from, I really don’t understand what this great resignation is, I don’t know how people can live. Right now, there are several legal immigration processes that are available. One is the H Tubi. system, which is a great way of bringing in seasonal employees for farms for landscaping, contractors, painters, manufacturing work, which we bring workers over here year after year. The H1-B lottery is another visa process. So there’s visa processes that are out there, it’s good to avail as an employer to not be afraid of these processes to you know, when you’re recruiting globally recruit, and when you find a candidate, seek out an immigration attorney and say, Hey, is there a way that I can bring this person over legally sponsor them? Is there a pathway and there are. You have companies like the bigger tech companies that are getting all the big H1-B visas, you have the bigger farming companies that are getting all the H2-B visas, because the smaller ones are not really availing themselves, the legalized programs that exist there, we have a lot of people who are coming into the country across the border, these individuals, they’re turning themselves into the Customs and Border Protection. So there’s an expectation at some time that, you know, some of them have fears of returning, I mean, that they’re going to start going through processes. These are individuals that will likely have employment authorization documents, within a year or so don’t forget about the American worker offer good wages, offer good benefits offer time off the world’s change right now in terms of how things work. So if there’s, you know, remote operations that you can offer, do that offer child care services, if you could, but you have to be creative.

Jessica  08:25

So I would love to get your perspective since you’ve been involved in immigration law for so long, and you definitely have a great grasp on the history of a lot of immigration policy changes. I know with COVID, you know, the legal industry got backed up in general; just court cases being rescheduled, I would really like to know what the last two years for immigration law has looked for you how has it changed because of the pandemic updates on border restrictions? I’d love to get your take on that.

Raymond Lahoud 08:52

When the pandemic hit immigration really became incredibly, incredibly busy from the travel restrictions to a title 42 at the border expulsions to people that were detained in immigration custody that were getting COVID It was a disaster for a long time for a lot of people. A lot of people out there who are stuck in other countries, you know, travel bans were coming up and moving and changing by the minute. And companies. You know, the companies that we represent, the employers that we represent that keep operating there were essential. They were central companies and they were healthcare companies. They were companies that do industrial manufacturing or handle electricity and the like, so they needed their employees here. So during COVID, we spent a lot of time trying to figure out the ways to bring a lot of these employees into the United States through the waivers that existed. They’re reaching out to the State Department to seek special exemptions. And then at the same time, you know, the immigration to the deportation defense part of it really came to a halt. court hearings were halted for all like non detained cases, which took an already incredibly backlogged immigration court system and took it about I have four more years behind now. So you’re probably looking at a good 10 years before an immigration judge for a trial. And after continuances and the, like 10 cases COVID really spread pretty heavily, we have to file lots of petitions and requests to try to get clients that were detained by immigration out of custody within the United States. So a lot happened during COVID. And when it came to immigration, in those days, there were nights where I was awake at, you know, two, three in the morning, making sure a client was able to get back in.

Jessica  10:34

We’re in such an interesting environment at this point, especially more recently with the Ukraine crisis, but we also had a changing of the hands in the White House, all the different elections. So there’s been a lot of transition period. And you know, we touched on it a little bit already. But the changes moving forward, I mean, now that the pandemic is having some type of release, besides needing that comprehensive immigration law changes, do you see any other changes now that we’re getting out of the pandemic, whether that’s Ukraine specifically, or just in general? What do you think is gonna happen here?

Raymond Lahoud 11:07

I think that we’ve, we’ve moved on to our next disaster with our next emergency, we’ll say, which is Ukraine right now. This is all that we hear about on the news, there aren’t COVID numbers at, you know, at the bottom, how do people are dying, how many people died and the like, I just feel that, you know, Ukraine has as taken over COVID. Now COVID brought on a time of remote hearings, which are still continuing now. The immigration courts, making fun of them with, you know, video, WebEx hearings in Zoom hearings, are able to move them quicker through the system and the like, and I have some serious issues. When it comes to remote hearings. You know, there’s huge due process concerns and having my client be able to testify in person where the judge can see his or her face. You know, there’s some very serious concerns in that. So they’re changes that, you know, came about from COVID, in terms of remote operations and the like, but I don’t know if they’re necessary to our benefit, even for, you know, immigrants work were coming in. And also, you would think that we really learned how to process things a lot faster. You know, what, we’re kind of hit with the crisis, and we just aren’t, you know, our embassies are still in a huge backlog when it comes to processing visas and, you know, fiance petitions and merit-based petitions and the like, but we are seeing movement here stateside within that, honestly, in terms of change. I mean, you just, it’s all patchwork.

Jessica  12:27

If memory serves me correctly, I know the Biden administration has put more emphasis on visas for STEM. I think people coming either for schooling or for employment, if I’m remembering correctly, do you think that’s a step in the right direction, I know it’s another “patch,” but…

Raymond Lahoud 12:43

 The United States has a huge number of international students in the United States, even locally here in what’s called the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, Lehigh, Lafayette, Cedar Crest Moravian, their F huge international student populations and international student populations are critical to cultural diversity to you know, just to the growth of the school and it’s bringing the world together. So as part of it, so students will come here from abroad, Saudi Arabia, countries, China, Japan, Australia, they’ll come to the F1 visa complete their courses here to get a bachelor’s degree. And if they typically, if you come in under the f1 visa, regardless of your degree, you’ll get 12 months of what’s called occupational practical training. And that’s because you 12 months of just training in your, your area of of studies, when you were in school, if you earned a STEM degree science, tech, engineering or math degree, you can get an additional 24 months of occupational practical training. To me, that’s great to me for bringing people here, and we’re educating them, we should keep them here and you know, give them jobs here. I mean, we there’s no reason that you know, we should be training talent and, you know, bringing in talent from across the world, and then just sending them, you know, back to, you know, their home country, particularly if they’re willing to stay and work here and become members of society in good standing that contribute pay taxes. Why not? Even if you were you came in, you knew you were coming in across the border, see, you’re still a kid, and then you turn over all of your information to the government when you’re 17 or 18 years old. And then, you know, four, eight years later, the Trump ministration says that they are going to get rid of it and it goes through courts who put it back in and take it out and put it back in and then there’s an injunction lifted, and these are hundreds of thousands of lives in people’s hands. People really have to recognize that there are faces to these individuals that have deferred action that have temporary protected status that there are faces to them. And it’s more than just politics. But could you imagine if you were in that position with deferred action, not knowing should I finish going to college should I spend the money should I take a job, what do I do next?

Jessica  15:01

COVID already caused a very large limbo feeling if you’re coming from another country, or you’ve been here, and then you might be told, “oh, you gotta go back to where you came from.” And I can’t imagine being young when you come here and then going back to a country you don’t even really know.

Rachel  15:17

So we wanted to get your viewpoints on Ukrainian refugees and immigration, how does this compare to other refugee crises that we’ve had in the past

Raymond Lahoud 15:27

Ukraine refugee crisis has brought the US government to its peak when it comes to refugees, and the like, they’ve acted very quickly, to bring in them what’s called Temporary Protected Status. You compare it to you know, what happened in Afghanistan and the lake, there are a lot of differences, I would say just that how quickly they are granted temporary protected status. You know, if you’re from Ukraine, there’s countries that are setting up policies like Canada to try to bring in people from Ukrainian. And I hope that these policies that these countries are putting together to help refugees in times of crisis will stay for other countries to beyond Ukraine’s. Hopefully this won’t be the last time that you’ll see other countries open their doors to help people. My mom and dad are both born in Lebanon and immigrated here during the civil war in the late 70s. And it was devastating. And the US opened its doors to the Christians from the north, they came in and became an integral part of the society life here in Pennsylvania, it’s good to see that in Ukraine, but we’re going to have other countries that are going to have similar issues. And who knows where, you know, President Putin may stop, we just really have to think long term about it. Because we also have to be realistic. And we can only handle so many people in our country. I hate to say that.

Rachel  16:49

How does that factor into maybe some of the more, like, long-term policy changes that the country could implement? Is there a need to sort of rethink how we bring in refugees, and how many people we can take and how that process really goes?

Raymond Lahoud 17:02

There is, there is, but how do you rethink that? You know, how do you it’s even just saying, you know, how many people can we take in I know you just feel I feel internally bad because you don’t want to turn anybody away, that’s really hurting, you know, and but we have to, thankfully, I’m not in Congress to make up those decisions. But I think there has to be, you know, some sense of reason, and balance. And I’m not really sure what that is.

Rachel  17:29

Like the US has to work together with other countries to make sure that we help them out of people that need to be helped. I don’t think it’s realistic for one country to sort of shoulder most of the burden.

Raymond Lahoud 17:38

It’s very hard to get refugee status. I mean, you don’t just kind of come into the United States and walk-in and may take years to go through I mean, if you’re going to the Iraqi refugee have to go in through the United Nations refugee program, there’s a huge process you have to go through, it’s not easy. The things that happened in Afghanistan kind of made known the issues with our you know, the refugee program and the lake. But it’s not, it’s not an easy process to go through. You can’t just walk into an embassy, US Embassy and say, Hey, I’m I’m afraid of where I’m living, I want to go to United States,

Rachel  18:09

Right, yeah. And I imagine on top of even having to be in a situation where you have to flee your home.

Raymond Lahoud 18:15

Anybody that goes through pain, like a harm or fear, you know, I mean, whether it’s domestic violence, and those are the worst of cases where I have clients who are coming in suffered extreme domestic violence, like at the hands of their spouses and the like, and, and with those, you know, you know, what you do, you can send them back, you know, when that when the spouse is going to kill them on, you know, they’re dead on arrival. And so those are cases that we’re dealing with inside the United States right now. It’s like we have refugees coming in. But we also have asylees, here in the United States that were people who are in here applying affirmatively for asylum, we have a lot of people in the United States that are here on like a protective status we do. We do so much. And other countries are recognizing that if you take a look at Australia, so people are coming into the to Australia, they don’t go into the country, they sit off-island for a long period of time for they claim asylum or anything like that. The other countries that are out there, I think that they all have some pretty unique set of circumstances that are there, and in ours has a lot of issues that we have to really work through.

Rachel  19:16

So you’ve written about policy changes in Pennsylvania aimed at helping undocumented immigrants, you know, entrepreneurs, people who are getting driver’s licenses, things like that. I was curious to get your insight on how you see these changes impacting both immigrants in the state as a whole, like what sort of have been the changes there?

Raymond Lahoud 19:33

Driver’s licenses in Pennsylvania, we’re seeing a movement. New Jersey, just fair aware, they pass legislation in the implement to the driver’s licenses, people who may not have a social security number or the like, right now in Pennsylvania. I believe it’s in the House Committee. It’s being discussed. I don’t see it moving out of there given the current makeup of the legislature. I don’t foresee it happening in Pennsylvania anytime soon. It does keep coming up a lot by members of the State House, I think it’s a good idea because people are driving. Let’s get real. There are people without papers in the United States. I mean, if we don’t realize that, I think that we’re just fooling ourselves. So, you know, it’s if it’s a way for them, they’re voluntarily providing their information, you know, why not register it, they can get their insurance. It’s not a federal issue. It’s a state issue as the as right to get driver’s licenses, it’s state-by-state. Pennsylvania considers that they look at it, they bring it up, but it always fills in committee doesn’t go anywhere. Pennsylvania, has the political planet as a swing state, as we all know, and immigration is a hot topic issue here.

Rachel  20:37

I’m glad to hear that at least it’s even if it’s not, you know, moving forward, I think it being on people’s minds is a good thing. So in terms of changes like that, and maybe large scale changes, like we spoken about how we just need really large scale immigration reform, I was wondering, we could talk about the changes that you think need be made to both attract and retain immigrants in the United States, I think there’s a lot of talk about specifically, after the Trump administration, a lot of international students to stop coming here, you know, the United States is losing talent to countries like Canada and other places like that. So I was curious to get your thoughts on that.

Raymond Lahoud 21:14

COVID-19 opened up a different way of kind of operating, we had spoken earlier, where, you know, these companies are now recognizing that they could get that global talent opened up a facility in India or, you know, have somebody remote in from Canada, or actually just physically move their locations to Canada, or their offices or their manufacturing sites to another country, because it’s easier to bring labor in. I think that other countries are starting to embrace certain kinds of immigration, like I know that Canada is, you know, they’ve implemented that another investment-based immigration system, they’ve made it easier for Indian workers a certain kind of ticket during COVID in the light. So there are countries that are taking no more proactive approach to bringing in people but during the Trump administration, people from abroad really felt they weren’t welcomed in the United States. And I saw that a lot with students, and there was a significant number. It’s coming back, and I’m seeing the numbers come back, and just from the schools locally, that that we’re working with. So in terms of the International Student Program, you know, I do feel that it’s picking back up after COVID. And after the Trump administration, I just think we have to kind of keep going with it to make sure that, you know, we know that the people that we’re inviting into our country, we know that we have to welcome them here and treat them kindly, and work with them. Because we’re just we are one world one people. I’m really just, I think it’s a realist here, and that, you know, you have immigration lawyers who, you know, will just, you know, push things to like an end and say, No, open borders, and you have no people on another end that would say, you know, close everything to anybody. And but I think we have to have recent ability. I mean, you just can’t close the United States to everything. I mean, you can’t close the United States to the globe’s cultures, we just have to find a middle ground. And I hope that, you know, I was able to kind of present some of that reason that no middle ground, that’s there being immigration where it’s hard to take, you know, some things that Trump did weren’t necessarily I’m going to do but if somebody heard me say that, and I will now, you know, they would be shocked at it. But I think that’s what the issue is, is that there’s no meeting of minds. People just become enemies, because somebody has a different political opinion. You know, I think there really has to come a realization that we just can’t shut the borders down completely. And you can’t open the borders up completely. There just has to be a middle ground that we all have to reach in. Our members of Congress really have to grow up and hopefully, they will. And hopefully, they’ll work with the Biden ministration. We’ll get somewhere.

Jessica  23:52

I actually have an interesting question. Since you’re located in Pennsylvania; Lancaster’s, a certified welcoming status for refugees. Do you think that’s helpful in situations like Ukraine? And like if more cities did that, do you see that as a positive direction?

Raymond Lahoud 24:06

I do, I do. I mean, like…Philadelphia has, like a welcome center for Lancaster was one of the counties like that. It’s really what they do with it is, yeah, it certainly hops. The more the better. Governor Wolf has actually taken very proactive actions towards the Ukrainian community here, even locally. But again, there’s more than just the Ukrainian community that are suffering from prosecution. So hopefully, it’ll open our minds to how we deal with other areas and in the future when this happens and how other countries can work together with it. But yeah, it does. It does help because it shows that we care you know, things like that only they can start shows that we care. You know, even if you know, New Jersey, they couldn’t give them give people a real ID driver’s license, but they gave them a license to drive and pencil and they can leave the state drive and add to it, it’s still a driver’s license so they can give What they want to know as much as they can give them and if that’s what Lancaster was able to give them, that’s what it was. They can’t give driver’s licenses but um, you know, that opens up a door for immigrants and to have stuff like that it’s good for them to have programs like that is good.

Rachel  25:14

Well, excellent. Thanks again, Ray for joining us today. We had a great conversation.

Raymond Lahoud 25:20

 It’s really been good being here talking about immigration. It’s an interesting topic. And hopefully, we’ll see things changing in the years to come and I’m here to talk to you whenever. Yeah, thank you for having me.

OUTRO  25:40

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